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Full hearings
Hearing: 25th June 2008, day 41
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ROSEMARY NELSON
PUBLIC INQUIRY
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held at:
The Interpoint Centre
20-24 York Street
Belfast BT15 1AQ
on Wednesday, 25th June 2008
commencing at 10.15 am
Day 41
1 Wednesday, 25th June 2008
2 (10.15 am)
3 Housekeeping
4 MR PHILLIPS: Sir, before Ms Farrell gives her evidence, can
5 I just deal with some questions of housekeeping.
6 First of all in relation to the dates for the next
7 session, the full hearings, they have now been provided
8 to the Full Participants and they have been put on the
9 website. The hearings start once more on 1st September.
10 We have also distributed lists of those witnesses
11 who we expect to be called in the first weeks of that
12 session, some nearly 50 names, with dates for questions
13 and lines of questioning to be submitted to the Inquiry
14 during July and August, so that the witness preparation
15 can continue during the summer months in order to make
16 a good start at the beginning of September.
17 So far as further documents we have handed out, we
18 have this morning distributed amended lists of various
19 types of witness, the Lawyers Alliance witnesses and the
20 NGO categories, and we have also handed out a new list,
21 a short one, I think, in relation to Canadian observers.
22 Sir, the final thing I wanted to do, because I won't
23 be here tomorrow, is to give you an update on the
24 information I gave before our last break, and it is
25 this: as far as we can calculate it, by the end of this
2
1 week's evidence, you will have heard from 48 witnesses,
2 and a further 83 will have had their statements taken
3 into account, giving a total of 131 witnesses whose
4 evidence has been considered during this first session.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
6 MR DONALDSON: Sir, before the witness starts, may I make
7 one observation about the lists.
8 I just happened to see the list of witnesses for
9 next term. There are in fact -- and I think the initial
10 list, I think, is a total of 26 witnesses, and we are
11 now required -- the protocol seems to have been changed
12 considerably. Prior to this, we were required to give
13 48 hours' notice of lists of questioning. Now we are
14 asked in a very short time to prepare really 26 lists
15 before 15th July, I think it is.
16 That is quite impossible. In view of the fact that
17 people make arrangements for holidays, sir -- and it
18 just simply isn't possible to do it within that time.
19 And I am just giving notice of that fact now, that, as
20 far as we are concerned, it will not be possible to
21 furnish the lists, bearing in mind that some of those
22 witnesses, their evidence comes to even 40 pages with
23 a vast number of exhibits and that requires a lot of
24 work and consideration. And in the time available, it
25 isn't possible and, therefore -- and we haven't been
3
1 indicated that this protocol is to be changed.
2 THE CHAIRMAN: I myself have not -- nor have my two
3 colleagues -- seen these lists.
4 MR DONALDSON: I see.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I suggest that you have further discussion
6 with Mr Phillips today and make any further submissions
7 at the conclusion of today's evidence, when I and my two
8 colleagues will have had an opportunity of looking at
9 these lists.
10 MR DONALDSON: Very well.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
12 May the witness take the oath, please?
13 MS SHARON FARRELL (sworn)
14 Questions by MR PHILLIPS
15 MR PHILLIPS: Can you give us your full names, please.
16 A. May name is Sharon Anne Farrell.
17 Q. Do you have a copy of the witness statement you have
18 made to the Inquiry in front of you?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Can we have it on the screen, please? It is RNI-806-037
21 (displayed). Do we see your signature at RNI-806-042
22 (displayed)?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the date of 21st May last year?
25 A. Yes.
4
1 Q. Thank you. Now, returning to the start of the
2 statement, you describe yourself as an attorney. Can
3 I ask you: how long have been qualified?
4 A. 14 years.
5 Q. Do you still practise?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. What is the field of your practice?
8 A. I have a private practice.
9 Q. Dealing with what sort of work?
10 A. Personal injury.
11 Q. And I think you are based in New Jersey?
12 A. I am.
13 Q. Now, looking at the substance of your statement, can
14 I ask you first: how did you come to hear of the Lawyers
15 Alliance for Justice in Ireland?
16 A. I was attending a seminar they had at Seton Hall Law
17 School in New Jersey.
18 Q. Can you remember when that was?
19 A. The mid 1990s.
20 Q. It looks from your statement as though Mr Lynch, who has
21 already given evidence to the Inquiry, asked you to
22 become involved in cases that he and the Lawyers
23 Alliance were monitoring in Northern Ireland?
24 A. That's true.
25 Q. What role did he wish you to undertake?
5
1 A. As an observer, to come and sit in on the trials.
2 Q. And when was it that you first visited Northern Ireland
3 as an observer?
4 A. I believe it was August of 1995.
5 Q. Right. So that was your first trip to Northern Ireland?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The first date you give us in your statement, in
8 paragraph 3, if you see at the bottom of the page, is
9 your first meeting with Rosemary Nelson, and you put
10 that in 1996?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So you think you made a previous visit to
13 Northern Ireland, the previous year, do you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. So far as the reference you make in that
16 same paragraph, 3, to your journal is concerned, have
17 you managed to find your journal?
18 A. No, the journal I have not found. It has been ten years
19 and I had two moves during that time.
20 Q. So, so far as dates are concerned, we have your memory?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But we don't have any written record?
23 A. That's true.
24 Q. Thank you. Before we look at the visits you paid and
25 your meetings with Rosemary Nelson, can I just ask you
6
1 about the other organisation that you refer to in your
2 evidence?
3 Now, this is -- I'm not even sure quite how to
4 pronounce it. Is it Brehon?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. What was your role in that organisation?
7 A. The Brehon Law Society was a group of Irish American
8 lawyers, as founded in New York City under Paul O'Neill.
9 Q. And your role in it?
10 A. I was at one time a vice president.
11 Q. What were the aims of that organisation?
12 A. To assist as well as we could the happenings in the
13 North with the different cases that were presented
14 to us.
15 Q. Assist in what way?
16 A. Assist in observing, assist with the attorneys, with
17 meeting with them, to see what we could do to help them,
18 to publicise cases.
19 Q. What sort of things did you do apart from publicising
20 the cases?
21 A. We would sit in on the trial itself.
22 Q. And see what was going on?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, before you visited in August 1995, what was your
25 knowledge of Northern Ireland?
7
1 A. The knowledge of Northern Ireland I had was that there
2 was lots of conflict up here that has been going on for
3 a long time. We were aware of the hunger strikes,
4 different pieces of information that would come by way
5 of the Irish community back home.
6 Q. When you first met Rosemary Nelson -- you deal with this
7 in paragraph 3 -- you tell us that at that stage you and
8 Jean Forest, who has also given a statement to the
9 Inquiry, were over in connection with the Colin Duffy
10 case?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can I ask you first, which Colin Duffy case was this?
13 A. I believe that he was accused allegedly of murdering
14 a police officer.
15 Q. Right. At the stage you visited, was there an appeal in
16 progress, do you remember?
17 A. I can't quite remember, but I believe there was an
18 appeal.
19 Q. Right. We know, you see, that there was an appeal going
20 on at some point later in 1996, but that was in relation
21 to a conviction for the murder of a man called Lyness.
22 A. Lyness.
23 Q. Who was an UDR man.
24 A. Hm-mm.
25 Q. Is that the context in which you met Rosemary Nelson for
8
1 the first time, do you think?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. In Lurgan.
5 Q. Yes. And can I just ask you about the date.
6 Jean Forest has told us in her statement to the Inquiry
7 that she thinks her first meeting with Rosemary Nelson
8 was the following year, 1997. Now, are you confident in
9 your recollection of it being the previous year, 1996?
10 A. I'm not sure, but I do know that we met in the cafeteria
11 in Lurgan, and it had to be 1996 or 1997 because it
12 wasn't my first trip over.
13 Q. But it could have been 1997?
14 A. It could have been.
15 Q. Yes. At the time you met Rosemary Nelson, what did you
16 know about her practice, the work that she did?
17 A. I knew that she worked with just a couple of other
18 lawyers and that a lot of her work was involved with the
19 Irish Catholic community up here in the North.
20 Q. Is there anything else that you knew about her work?
21 A. No, not at that time.
22 Q. Was her practice, the work that she did, something that
23 you had discussed with other members of the Lawyers
24 Alliance, for example?
25 A. Yes.
9
1 Q. And were some of them at least better informed about it
2 than you were?
3 A. I'm sorry?
4 Q. Were some of them better informed about her work than
5 you were?
6 A. Yes, I'm sure they were.
7 Q. And so when you first met her in the cafe, as you
8 describe it, what was the purpose of meeting her with
9 Jean Forest?
10 A. To discuss the Colin Duffy case and where it was, what
11 stage it was at.
12 Q. Were you at that stage offering her assistance with the
13 case?
14 A. Not at that stage.
15 Q. No. Did you come to offer assistance in relation to
16 that case?
17 A. No, I just came as an observer.
18 Q. So what did you observe on this visit?
19 A. There seemed to be a lot of tension, a lot of resistance
20 from the other sides; uneasiness on her part in the
21 defence of all these cases that she had taken on.
22 Q. And that was something that you observed, was it, at
23 your first meeting with her in 1996 or 1997?
24 A. Yes, and I was wondering why she would take on such work
25 as she did, being that she was a wife and mother.
10
1 Q. You tell us in your statement at paragraph 4 -- this is
2 at RNI-806-038 (displayed) -- that she told you she had
3 a very dangerous career?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, so I have understood this, was she telling you then
6 that her work was particularly dangerous?
7 A. I believe I asked her.
8 Q. And what was her response?
9 A. Yes, it was dangerous, it was risky.
10 Q. Why did you ask her that question?
11 A. Because I had stayed in the Ardoyne and this was my
12 first exposure to the North, and it was a very different
13 experience than what I have had in the States, of
14 course.
15 Q. Now, you also tell us that she told you that she felt
16 the RUC were following her around and keeping tabs on
17 her?
18 A. In which -- where are you referring to?
19 Q. I am still in paragraph 4. Do you see in the third
20 sentence beginning, "she commented ..."?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can I just ask you first of all, did she give you any
23 examples of being followed around?
24 A. Examples in what way? Showing us a car that was
25 following us, do you mean, sir?
11
1 Q. Did she explain an occasion or occasions in which she
2 had in fact been followed?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you remember any details?
5 A. She would just say that the cars would be following her
6 and she would be able to identify them. I think she was
7 familiar with the officers' faces.
8 Q. Any further details?
9 A. You mean licence numbers? No.
10 Q. What about the keeping tabs on her? What did she mean
11 by that, as you understood it?
12 A. It seems that when she would appear places, there would
13 be members of the RUC that she would recognise and she
14 would be wondering why they were there.
15 Q. Again, did she give you specific examples?
16 A. She might have mentioned names, but I don't remember
17 them.
18 Q. Now, you tell us that she went on to tell you in general
19 terms that Mr Duffy and his family had been receiving
20 threats because of the accusation that he had killed
21 a police officer.
22 Again, can you remember any more particular details
23 about this and what she told you?
24 A. We were in the house of Colin Duffy and his wife --
25 Q. Yes.
12
1 A. -- and I heard it from Colin Duffy himself.
2 Q. So, I see, this is something which was passed on to you
3 by Mr Duffy, was it?
4 A. As well as Ms Nelson.
5 Q. Right. Okay. And again, can I ask you: can you
6 remember any details of that?
7 A. As far as names, no, I cannot remember names. I can
8 remember them saying that they would not go out at
9 night. They were afraid to go out at night. The wife
10 was afraid to go out by herself.
11 Q. Yes. And was she, Rosemary Nelson, asking you for help
12 or asking your organisation for help or assistance in
13 any way?
14 A. As far as protection? No, we would not be able to
15 protect her.
16 Q. You also tell us that, as I understand it, on this first
17 meeting she told you that she, Rosemary Nelson, had been
18 receiving threats. And this is your paragraph 6, the
19 first line at the bottom of page RNI-806-038
20 (displayed).
21 Again, can I ask you: can you recall now --
22 obviously it is a very long time ago -- any more detail
23 about that?
24 A. At the time I had worked in the Public Defender's
25 Office, so I was on the criminal side, the defence
13
1 criminal side as well as she was, and when she was
2 mentioning that she would receive threats from the RUC,
3 I understood it to be the Royal Ulster Constabulary,
4 which is a recognised force in the North. And I found
5 it quite appalling that they would be so bold as to
6 threaten her outright.
7 Q. But did she give you an example of such a threat?
8 A. Phone calls that she had received, letters.
9 Q. You mention letters on the next page, at the, top of
10 RNI-806-039 (displayed). What can you remember about
11 the information that she gave you about the letters?
12 A. Well, the letters were just stop what you are doing, to
13 that effect. I don't know the exact words, but that was
14 the message.
15 Q. Did she tell you whether they were sent to her house or
16 to her workplace?
17 A. I believe she said her home.
18 Q. And as I understand it, you didn't see any of the
19 letters; is that right?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did she tell you anything about their contents?
22 A. The contents were just offensive. They were just
23 threats. That is what she said.
24 Q. Can you remember the nature of the threats?
25 A. To her livelihood.
14
1 Q. To her livelihood, to her life?
2 A. To her life, yes.
3 Q. Did you get any impression from her of how many there
4 had been, whether they were regular or whether this was
5 something that had only happened once or twice?
6 A. It would be enough to make me stop.
7 Q. And what was her reaction to all of this, as far as you
8 could judge?
9 A. Courageous.
10 Q. Did she seem to be concerned about them?
11 A. Yes. Yes, she did.
12 Q. How did that manifest itself?
13 A. She mentioned them several times. She spoke about, you
14 know, her children and that she knew that her husband
15 was not fond of her work, that it put her in harm's way.
16 There were other people who would also bear consequences
17 if anything happened to her; namely, her children.
18 Q. So she told you, did she, that her husband was worried
19 about the effect of her work?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, you say in your statement, in the same paragraph 6,
22 at the top of page RNI-806-039 (displayed), that:
23 "When she spoke of the threat she was fairly matter
24 of fact."
25 A. Hm-mm.
15
1 Q. Is it fair to say that you regarded that as something of
2 a front?
3 A. Could you be more specific about "a front"?
4 Q. Did you think that that was her actual feeling, being
5 matter of fact about it?
6 A. Oh, yes.
7 Q. It was?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You see, you say in your statement that she was stressed
10 and concerned. How did that manifest itself in the
11 conversation?
12 A. Chain smoking.
13 Q. Did it seem to you that the threats were getting to her?
14 A. Yes, I did think they were getting to her, but she still
15 displayed a lot of guts and courage by going forward
16 with them, despite them.
17 Q. Earlier in this same paragraph, you mention a specific
18 incident where she tells you -- and this is the second
19 line of paragraph 6 -- that an RUC officer had hit her?
20 A. Yes, assaulted her.
21 Q. Now, you give limited details about that in the next
22 sentences and you say at one point:
23 "... I got the feeling that it was not in private,
24 but in an open place ..."
25 Can you remember anything more about the
16
1 circumstances as they were explained to you?
2 A. Yes, I believe it was when she was involved with
3 Garvaghy Road.
4 Q. We know that that alleged assault happened in July 1997,
5 so does that help you with the dating of this first
6 meeting with Rosemary Nelson?
7 A. Well, it would have been in summer, because that is when
8 I would have my vacation time.
9 Q. If you think now that she was referring to that
10 incident, then your visit must have post-dated that
11 incident, mustn't it?
12 A. You mean after?
13 Q. Hm-mm.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So it follows, doesn't it, that it is more likely than
16 not that your first meeting with Rosemary Nelson was in
17 fact in 1997 and not 1996?
18 A. It may well have been.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, having heard all these details from
20 her, you tell us in an earlier paragraph of your
21 statement, paragraph 4, that, as you said earlier, you
22 effectively challenged her and said, as I understand it,
23 "Why do you carry on doing this sort of work if it puts
24 you in danger?"
25 What was her response to that challenge?
17
1 A. She seemed unaffected by it. It seemed that she had
2 a cause that she believed in and that she was going to
3 help these -- and defend these people, and she seemed
4 very strong in her conviction of that.
5 Q. Do you think what she was telling you is that she had
6 a conviction about her work or about the causes of her
7 clients?
8 A. It would be both. I don't know how you would separate
9 one from the other.
10 Q. You make a very specific reference in this same
11 paragraph to Pat Finucane. The words you use there, you
12 say:
13 "I remember that Mrs Nelson also mentioned
14 Patrick Finucane and his fate and said she was following
15 in his desire to protect the Catholic community."
16 Are those, as far as you can recall, the words that
17 she used of herself?
18 A. Yes, because I asked her why would she do this, and she
19 said because there was an attorney, Patrick Finucane,
20 who was defending the Catholic community. I believe he
21 was murdered inside of his house with his children or
22 his son to witness it as well.
23 Q. So she was expressing to you, was she, that she regarded
24 her role as carrying on the work that he had done?
25 A. Yes.
18
1 Q. Is that a fair way of putting it?
2 A. A fair way.
3 Q. But it sounds from the last sentence of this paragraph
4 as though in a sense she regretted that there wasn't
5 anyone else -- specifically, you say, a man -- who could
6 have carried it on in her place?
7 A. I believe I asked -- I posed the question to her, asking
8 her why would she be doing this as she had young
9 children at the time.
10 Q. And that is when she gave you this answer?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is that right? Yes.
13 Now, during the course of this conversation in the
14 cafe in Lurgan, was it clear to you exactly why she was
15 telling you all these things?
16 A. Because I was asking her.
17 Q. So she was responding to questions?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. She wasn't simply making a series of statements to you
22 off her own bat?
23 A. It was kind of a mix. I would ask questions and then
24 she would add different statements as well.
25 Q. Did you discusses with her whether she had reported
19
1 these things?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. To the authorities?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was her response?
6 A. It was kind of confusing. I think that she said she may
7 have reported them. I didn't see any copies of any
8 letters, though, to that effect.
9 Q. You see, you say in paragraph 6 in the penultimate
10 sentence, which is at the top of RNI-806-039
11 (displayed):
12 "She knew she needed help and I think she knew she
13 wasn't going to get it."
14 Now, can I ask you: what do you mean by that?
15 A. As I remember, Rosemary didn't feel that the community
16 would support her as far as the RUC was concerned.
17 Q. The community wouldn't support her?
18 A. I'm sorry, the RUC.
19 Q. I see. Is that something she said to you?
20 A. I believe she referred to it as the police force.
21 Q. Yes. But presumably that raised the question of whether
22 she could get help from any other source. Did you
23 discuss that with her?
24 A. Any other source, such as?
25 Q. Was any other source discussed? Source of help?
20
1 A. I think that is why we were there: to get support from
2 outside communities as well in the United States.
3 Q. So did you then discuss with her the ways in which you
4 and your organisation might help?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what was discussed?
7 A. Writing to congressmen in the United States, bringing
8 her case, giving it more exposure -- not her case, but
9 anything that was happening, more exposure to the
10 public.
11 Q. So your role in giving help was to make a wider
12 audience, if I can put it that way --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- aware of her situation?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And presumably that would be particularly in the
17 United States of America?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Yes. When she explained her view, which is that she
20 needed help and she didn't think she was going to get
21 it, did you question that with her, question her
22 attitude in relation to the police, for example?
23 A. No, I was just thinking of ways that we could possibly
24 drum up some exposure in the United States with the
25 congressmen that we had known over there.
21
1 Q. So your focus is on what you could do back in the
2 United States of America?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Yes. Now, in relation to the threat letters that we
5 talked about a little while ago, you have told us you
6 were in the public defender's office at this time. Did
7 you discuss with her the idea that the letters
8 themselves ought to be handed in to the police to be
9 analysed, to see if any clues as to their origin might
10 be obtained?
11 A. She may have submitted them. I can't recall.
12 Q. But you didn't make that suggestion to her?
13 A. I may have.
14 Q. Specifically?
15 A. I may have.
16 Q. And are you aware, as a result of your further
17 discussions and meetings with her, whether that was in
18 fact done?
19 A. I only know that I can recall is that we were sending
20 letters to now Senator Menendez over in the States.
21 Q. This is your organisation?
22 A. It isn't an organisation. We have access to our
23 congressmen and senators.
24 Q. So that is your local senator, is it?
25 A. Yes.
22
1 Q. So your reaction when you got back to the States was to
2 raise the matter with your elected representative
3 locally?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you raise that as a possibility for her: "Why don't
6 you write to your member of Parliament?"
7 A. I may have, I am sure that we did but I can't recall
8 specifically.
9 Q. Now, after these meetings and discussions that we have
10 talked of, did you stay in touch with Rosemary Nelson in
11 the succeeding years?
12 A. Yes, periodically.
13 Q. I think it is right to say -- please tell me if this is
14 correct -- that your next meeting with her wasn't
15 until March 1999. Is that correct?
16 A. I believe that would be correct.
17 Q. Yes. So in the intervening period -- let us say between
18 the summer of 1997 and March 1999 -- how often would you
19 speak to her?
20 A. Well, she came in to New Jersey, I believe, in the
21 summer of 1998.
22 Q. Yes. And on that occasion you tell us you went to
23 a dinner?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I think you didn't speak to her but you were both
23
1 attending the same dinner. Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. We will come to that in a minute, but can I just ask
4 you: that is the dinner you have told us about in your
5 statement. You have also dealt with the later meeting
6 in March 1999, but in the period between, how regularly
7 were you in contact?
8 A. Perhaps every few months. Jean Forest was more in
9 contact with her than I.
10 Q. Would the contact be by phone, by email?
11 A. By phone.
12 Q. You haven't mentioned any of those conversations in your
13 statement, but what were the sort of topics you would
14 discuss?
15 A. Well, just how things were going over there, what was
16 the climate, how she was, her, her family, personal
17 matters as well as professional.
18 Q. Did you return to any of the topics you had discussed in
19 the cafe?
20 A. I don't think I would have done that over the phone.
21 Q. No.
22 A. No.
23 Q. So you didn't have any further conversations --
24 A. Not that I can recall.
25 Q. Okay. There is something I would like to look up before
24
1 we look at the dinner, at the time she gave evidence in
2 Congress. Can you look, please, at RNI-114-121.503? We
3 will put it up oh the screen (displayed).
4 A. I have it.
5 Q. This is a list of delegates for a Lawyers Alliance visit
6 in February 1998, and you will see on the left-hand side
7 your name appears?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Just above Jean Forest's, in fact?
10 A. Hm-mm.
11 Q. As far as we can tell from other material, you didn't in
12 fact come to Northern Ireland that year in the
13 delegation. Is that correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. So that was obviously a delegate list that didn't in
16 fact reflect the final composition of the delegation in
17 your case anyway?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Thank you. So the next time, from your statement at any
20 rate, you met Rosemary Nelson, as you say, is at the
21 time of the dinner, and this is paragraph 7 of your
22 statement at RNI-806-039 (displayed). And as I
23 understand it, you were one of a number of people
24 present who listened to Rosemary Nelson speak to the
25 dinner, but on that occasion she did not give any detail
25
1 of specific threats. Is that correct?
2 A. I believe there wasn't specific threats, but she still
3 was talking about the uncomfortableness and the
4 unsafeness that she felt.
5 Q. What can you remember of what she said?
6 A. I remember specifically that she said -- she was going
7 before Congress, or she'd gone before Congress about
8 different threats on her life.
9 Q. Can you remember anything else about it?
10 A. I think that was kind of after I heard about that she
11 had threats on her life. It just gave me to pause after
12 that.
13 Q. But you didn't speak to her yourself?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Oh, you did?
16 A. I was seated with her at the table.
17 Q. I see. Right. You see, you say about six lines down:
18 "I did not speak with Rosemary Nelson personally on
19 this occasion."
20 A. About specific facts? Because I know I spoke with her
21 to say hello, how are you, how was your trip;
22 pleasantries, as such.
23 Q. So you did speak to her but you didn't speak to her
24 about the threats and the other sorts of points you
25 discussed in the cafe?
26
1 A. Yes, there was conversation that took place around the
2 table.
3 Q. Right.
4 A. It is in the statement.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, you say in the final sentence of this
6 paragraph that your sense was that she was:
7 "... serious and business orientated even at this
8 event."
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can I ask you to help us: what do you mean by that,
11 "serious and business orientated"?
12 A. She was preparing for the congressional meetings. She
13 spoke just a bit about her family, but she seemed more
14 interested in the task at hand, which was going before
15 Congress. Those sessions I didn't attend.
16 Q. No. Can we then finally deal with your meeting with her
17 in March 1999.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Some two weeks before her murder. You were over in
20 Ireland, as I understand it, with your cousin?
21 A. Yes, I was.
22 Q. And he was also a lawyer, I think?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is that right?
25 A. Yes, he was, he was the deputy.
27
1 Q. And he expressed an interest, as I understand it, in
2 meeting Rosemary Nelson?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you contacted her and she was very pleased to meet
5 you on your visit in March that year?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You say in paragraph 9, in the last sentence:
8 "I think she felt that she needed support and so she
9 was always keen to meet with people and talk to them and
10 tell them what was going on."
11 That assessment of her state of mind, is that based
12 on this recent, or most recent meeting with her
13 in March 1999?
14 A. No. From the very first I would perceive that Rosemary
15 would like to meet other attorneys. She was very
16 interested in finding out different things about the
17 United States and our defence system there.
18 Q. But in relation to the support that you refer to, how do
19 you think she felt she was getting support from
20 conversations of this kind?
21 A. Because she knew we would act.
22 Q. Is it because she was able to ask you to do things on
23 her behalf?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And that she regarded that as a form of support?
28
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Yes. Now, earlier in the statement at the previous
3 paragraph, you tell us that you had been encouraged to
4 pay her a visit by one or other of the organisations you
5 have told us about, and you say:
6 "Everyone was certainly very concerned for her
7 safety at this time."
8 So this is March 1999.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How did you learn of that concern, presumably on the
11 part of other members of the two organisations?
12 A. I think in my statement I said I can't be sure, but
13 I know that we were always concerned about the attorneys
14 and the community over here.
15 Q. Yes. Was there anything in particular about this time,
16 in other words March 1999, which had led to concern?
17 A. I believe this was post the congressional meetings, was
18 it not?
19 Q. Yes, it was.
20 A. Okay, she had said that she was afraid for her life,
21 that there were threats upon her life.
22 Q. So you think that those concerns derived from the
23 evidence she gave to Congress?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were there any other matters leading to concern at this
29
1 stage, that you can remember?
2 A. At the courthouse, when we were there in March? She
3 didn't want to leave the courthouse. She didn't want to
4 go into a public -- she wanted to stay in the
5 courthouse. She felt safer there.
6 Q. We will come to that in a minute. You see, in your
7 statement you mention this concern in the context of
8 your being encouraged to pay her a visit. So that is
9 before your meeting in the courthouse. But what I'm
10 trying to ask you is whether, in addition to the
11 testimony she gave in Congress, there was anything else
12 going on at that time which led to those concerns?
13 A. I think there was always an ongoing series of threats
14 against Rosemary Nelson.
15 Q. Can you remember anything specific?
16 A. In her words?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Yes, that they would want to kill her, that they said
19 they would kill her.
20 Q. Those are the words she used at the hearing, as you
21 remember them; is that right?
22 A. I know I heard it from her own self, and I believe
23 I heard it in the congressional meetings as well in the
24 video.
25 Q. Can I ask you when you heard it from her?
30
1 A. On more than one occasion. I believe in the initial
2 meeting.
3 Q. The meeting --
4 A. In the cafeteria.
5 Q. In summer 1997?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, in relation to the Lawyers Alliance, did you know
8 at the time you were arranging to pay your own visit
9 that the alliance had its own deputation going to
10 Northern Ireland in February 1999?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Yes. And were you aware that there was still going on
13 at this point a complaints investigation involving
14 a Lawyers Alliance complaint on Rosemary Nelson's
15 behalf?
16 A. Yes, I believe that Ed Lynch had mentioned that to me.
17 Q. Yes. In your evidence about this meeting in March 1999,
18 you describe meeting Rosemary Nelson at court. Can
19 I ask you, please, who was present apart from yourself
20 and Rosemary Nelson?
21 A. My cousin, John McKenna.
22 Q. Was anybody else present?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And what struck you about Rosemary Nelson's mood on this
25 occasion?
31
1 A. That she didn't want to leave the courthouse. She
2 didn't want to get in a car, she didn't want to go into
3 town to have lunch, that she preferred to stay in the
4 cafeteria. She felt safer there, she said.
5 Q. Compared to the earlier meeting in Lurgan in 1997, what
6 had happened to her mood?
7 A. I can't say. She just seemed more cautious, she didn't
8 want to leave the building because she wanted to be
9 surrounded by a lot of people. We had wanted to go into
10 town for lunch and she declined and said that she
11 preferred to sit in the cafeteria.
12 Q. You say in 10 that -- this is about five lines down:
13 "When she appeared, she was energetic and bubbly as
14 always and immediately started talking."
15 A. Hm-mm.
16 Q. When did it become clear to you that she was in fact, as
17 you put it later, much more frightened?
18 A. Well, initially when she saw us, of course, she was
19 excited and she met my cousin because he was the deputy
20 for the Public Defender's Office, and then she got right
21 into the defence systems in the United States, the
22 defence systems over here.
23 Q. But at some point, clearly, it struck you that she
24 was -- and again, I use the words you have used in your
25 statement -- "much more frightened"?
32
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. At what point in the conversation did that strike you?
3 A. When she didn't want to leave the courthouse.
4 Q. Was it clear to you what she was afraid of?
5 A. She was always afraid for her bodily harm.
6 Q. You see, when you talked earlier about the meeting you
7 had in the cafe in Lurgan, you described the way she
8 talked about threats as being matter of fact. Now, was
9 that the way she talked about these issues when you met
10 her in March 1999?
11 A. She seemed more serious, more sober in her demeanour and
12 more implicit on not leaving the courthouse.
13 Q. In paragraph 12, you tell us that she asked your cousin
14 how lawyers were protected in the United States. Can
15 you remember what prompted her to raise that issue in
16 the conversation?
17 A. No.
18 Q. No. And you then tell us that she returned to the topic
19 of threats?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But as I understand it, she did not give you any further
22 details in this conversation in March 1999; is that
23 correct?
24 A. No, I believe that she asked my cousin how the attorneys
25 were protected in the United States, and he said they
33
1 didn't really have to be protected; they weren't met
2 with any kind of threats.
3 Q. What did she say to you in the conversation about her
4 feelings about the threats?
5 A. She was very frightened.
6 Q. When you raised this issue with her on the earlier
7 occasion, challenged her, as we discussed earlier, she
8 told you that she felt she had to carry on. Did you
9 have a similar conversation on this occasion?
10 A. I think by this time I knew that she was set in her mind
11 that this was the work that she chose to do.
12 Q. So in that sense, her approach and her attitude was
13 unchanged; is that fair?
14 A. Maybe it was unchanged in my mind.
15 Q. Now, you say then in paragraph 13 that you noticed
16 a change in Rosemary Nelson from when you had first met
17 her, and you give some examples about the way she
18 carried on her work. In particular, you say that she
19 told you that she was "having to meet clients in
20 secret"?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you remember any more details about having to meet
23 clients in secret? Did she give you examples?
24 A. I believe she said that there was a case in the
25 Protestant community that she was now taking up.
34
1 Q. And that it was in that case -- is that right? -- that
2 she had had to meet clients in secret?
3 A. Yes, the one that she mentioned to me. There may have
4 been others, but this is what specifically she mentioned
5 to me.
6 Q. Did she explain why she had felt she had had to behave
7 in that way?
8 A. I think it was understood that -- by this time that her
9 life was threatened. She had mentioned many times, so I
10 did not have to question her.
11 Q. But it sounds as though what she was telling you was
12 that she felt the need to hide the fact that she was
13 acting in what you describe as a very unpopular case?
14 A. I don't know what you mean.
15 Q. Well, I am just trying to understand from the way she
16 explained this business of meeting clients in secret.
17 You see, you say later your statement:
18 "This was a very unpopular case."
19 Did you understand her to be telling you that
20 because it was a very unpopular case, she had felt the
21 need to meet her clients in secret?
22 A. Yes, I would think so.
23 Q. And that seems also to have concerned you because, as
24 you put it, if people didn't know where she was and
25 something happened to her, nobody would be able to reach
35
1 her?
2 A. Hm-mm, yes.
3 Q. And did you express that concern in this meeting?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what was her reaction?
6 A. As always, Rosemary continued unafraid.
7 Q. And in relation to what might be done, what might be
8 done to help, it looks as though she asked you -- this
9 is paragraph 14 at the bottom of the page -- to, as it
10 were, keep in touch with your senator, although she
11 didn't give you any specific information to pass on to
12 him; is that right?
13 A. I think the specific information would have been that
14 the cases would have been carried out unbiased, with
15 exposure, as much as possible.
16 Q. In relation to the question of her protection or
17 personal security, you tell us that you don't recall
18 that being raised, but you say this -- and it is the
19 penultimate sentence of this page, RNI-806-041
20 (displayed):
21 "In any event, it was the police who she was afraid
22 of and I know she felt she couldn't trust them."
23 Now, can I just ask you: that last part of the
24 sentence, "I know she felt she couldn't trust them," is
25 that something that she said to you, that she couldn't
36
1 trust the police?
2 A. Could you, please, refer me to which sentence this is,
3 sir?
4 Q. Sorry, it is the penultimate sentence of this page,
5 RNI-806-041 (displayed), in paragraph 14. Perhaps we
6 can highlight it. There. Do you see? It is on the
7 screen.
8 A. I have it.
9 Q. "... I know she felt she couldn't trust them."
10 Now, that lack of trust in the police is what I am
11 asking you about. Is that something she expressed to
12 you herself?
13 A. It could have been my own perception.
14 Q. So it may have been, as it were, an inference that you
15 drew rather than something she said to you herself?
16 A. An inference that I drew from my prior meetings with
17 her, Rosemary.
18 Q. Can I take it, therefore, that you did not have any
19 discussion was with her, that you can recall, about any
20 steps she may have taken in relation to her own
21 protection?
22 A. I believe that she did go into the police precincts in
23 Lurgan. I believe she had mentioned that, that she did
24 send letters to them in Lurgan.
25 Q. Can you remember anything else about that aspect?
37
1 A. No, but that she did approach them, that she did send
2 letters.
3 Q. Right. Those are all the questions I wish to ask you,
4 but, as I say to all the witnesses who come to the
5 Inquiry to give evidence, if there is any matter that we
6 haven't covered but that you would like to draw to the
7 attention of the Inquiry Panel, this is your opportunity
8 to do so.
9 A. Good morning. I would like to say that that was my last
10 time in Belfast, 1st March 1999. Once we heard the news
11 of Rosemary's murder, I really did not desire to come
12 back here out of the stunning and -- boldness of the
13 attack, and this is my first time back and I am glad to
14 be here.
15 Question by THE CHAIRMAN
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms Farrell, we are very grateful for you
17 coming over here to give evidence before us. Just one
18 question I would like to ask you, if you can remember
19 this: on 1st March 1999, when you were in the courthouse
20 and you saw Rosemary Nelson in the cafeteria with your
21 cousin, can you remember what sort of case it was that
22 had caused Rosemary Nelson to be in the courthouse?
23 A. No, I can't, sir.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: You didn't discuss the case that she was on
25 at all?
38
1 A. No, she didn't. We were mostly exchanging information
2 about the different defence justice systems, US and
3 the UK.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you very
5 much indeed.
6 Yes? Would you like an adjournment?
7 MR DONALDSON: Yes, a short adjournment, sir, thank you.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms Farrell, if you wouldn't mind remaining
9 here for a few more minutes. We are going to have
10 a quarter of an hour break, and maybe very shortly
11 afterwards you will be able to return, if you wish,
12 today to the United States.
13 A. Yes, thank you.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: We will have a quarter of an hour break.
15 (11.11 am)
16 (Short break)
17 (11.30 am)
18 Further questions by MR PHILLIPS
19 MR PHILLIPS: Now, there are just two matters I want to ask
20 you about in addition to those we covered earlier.
21 First of all -- and perhaps it will help to go back
22 to your statement; if you look at paragraph 6, and it is
23 the part on page RNI-806-039 (displayed) -- you talked
24 in your evidence about threat letters, we discussed
25 those, and also you mentioned calls, and we discussed
39
1 those. Did you understand from Rosemary Nelson when you
2 spoke to her who she believed to be responsible for
3 those threat letters and calls?
4 A. The threat letters or the assaults?
5 Q. You have talked specifically about the assault. I don't
6 want to ask you about that, but about the threat letters
7 first. Did she tell you who she believed was
8 responsible for the threat letters?
9 A. She wasn't sure, I don't think, specifically.
10 Q. Did she suggest to you specifically that she believed
11 the threat letters had been sent by the police?
12 A. She said -- Rosemary said that it could have been
13 a possibility.
14 Q. But she put it no higher than that?
15 A. Exactly.
16 Q. Now, as for the calls, again did she tell you who she
17 believed was responsible for them?
18 A. Members of the community.
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 Now, the final matter is this: you talk in your
21 statement, in the early parts, about various meetings
22 with Colin Duffy, and the first thing I wanted to ask
23 you is how many times on that visit do you think you met
24 him?
25 A. Twice.
40
1 Q. Twice? So would that be once at his house?
2 A. Hm-mm.
3 Q. And where was the second meeting?
4 A. I believe it was at his house.
5 Q. So you met him twice at his house?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Right. And nowhere else, as far as you can remember?
8 A. As far as I can remember.
9 Q. You see in paragraph 5, if we just look at that
10 together -- and that is on page RNI-806-038
11 (displayed) -- you say in the second sentence you
12 recall --
13 A. Yes, I thought maybe it might have been at Long Kesh,
14 but I wasn't sure.
15 Q. Clearly, if he had been in prison at that time, you
16 would only have been able to meet him there. Does it
17 suggest that your recollection of where you met him is
18 somewhat vague at this point?
19 A. No, I remember being at his home.
20 Q. Right.
21 A. For sure, and I believe that we were in Long Kesh as
22 well. I went to Long Kesh several times.
23 Q. And you think on two of those occasions -- is this
24 right? -- that you met Mr Duffy?
25 A. Yes.
41
1 Q. Can I ask you: why did you think it necessary to meet
2 him on those occasions?
3 A. Because when you are looking at a case, there is nothing
4 like face-to-face with the person that is involved, the
5 defendant.
6 Q. Were they meetings suggested by you or by
7 Rosemary Nelson herself?
8 A. A mixture of both. I think I would have liked to have
9 seen the defendant.
10 Q. Thank you very much.
11 Further questions by THE CHAIRMAN
12 THE CHAIRMAN: You actually went inside Long Kesh, did you?
13 A. Yes.
14 THE CHAIRMAN: What is your recollection? How many times
15 inside Long Kesh were you there?
16 A. I believe three occasions, at least three occasions.
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Well, we wish you
18 a good flight back to the United States, thank you.
19 A. Thank you.
20 THE CHAIRMAN: We will rise now for a quarter of an hour.
21 We will say ten to 12.
22 (11.34 am)
23 (Short break)
24 (11.50 am)
25
42
1 MR PAUL NELSON (sworn)
2 Questions by MR PHILLIPS
3 MR PHILLIPS: Can you give us your full name, please.
4 A. Paul Robert Nelson.
5 Q. Do you have in front of you a copy of the statement you
6 have made to the Inquiry?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can we have it up on the screen, please, at RNI-813-033
9 (displayed)? If we turn over to RNI-813-072
10 (displayed), do we see your signature there and the date
11 of 22nd May this year?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, turning back to the beginning of the statement, you
14 tell us that you and Rosemary Nelson met at university
15 together?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You were, I think, rather ahead of her; is that right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And I don't think you knew her well at that stage?
20 A. No.
21 Q. But you obviously -- you say:
22 "... began a relationship with her in late 1979 and
23 early 1980."
24 And I think in 1983 you got married?
25 A. That's correct.
43
1 Q. So far as your backgrounds are concerned, you say in
2 paragraph 2 that you wouldn't consider yourself a Lurgan
3 person?
4 A. No, I wasn't educated in Lurgan. I spent all my
5 education either on the outskirts of Lurgan, Newry, or
6 then straight to university. It was only when I left
7 university -- I actually was at boarding school in my
8 secondary education. So it was only when I finished
9 university that I began living in Lurgan full-time.
10 Q. But Rosemary Nelson was a Lurgan person?
11 A. Yes, she was born and bred there.
12 Q. Her family came from there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And she lived and worked there for all of her life?
15 A. Correct, yes.
16 Q. Can I just ask you about her early career, first of all.
17 You tell us that her first legal work, her
18 apprenticeship, was with a firm in Portadown; is that
19 right?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And it was at the time when she'd finished those -- in
22 England they call them articles, the apprenticeship --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- that you got married?
25 A. That's correct, yes.
44
1 Q. As I understand it, thereafter it was difficult for her
2 to find work and, as it were, by way of replacement, she
3 took a job running the community advice centre in
4 Lurgan?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, reading your statement, it looks as though her plan
7 was always to have her own practice; is that right?
8 A. Well, not her own practice initially, but to practise
9 law, yes.
10 Q. So that she was looking for something more, and more
11 permanent than the local community advice centre?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The way you put it in paragraph 5 of your statement is
14 that she needed another year of work in a practice to
15 allow her, as you put it:
16 "... to open up on her own."
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. So do you think then by, let's say, the mid to
19 late 1980s that idea of opening up on her own was very
20 much in her mind?
21 A. Well, after she had worked there for two or three years,
22 she decided she wanted to go back into law and at that
23 time I think lawyers' jobs were very hard to come by,
24 and she thought the best way would be to open her own
25 practice.
45
1 Q. So she found a job in Lisburn, where she was the only
2 assistant solicitor, and worked there in fact for rather
3 less than a year, six to nine months, you say?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then got her practising certificate?
6 A. Practising certificates were issued, I think, in the
7 January of each year. She had been informed that she
8 would have to work for a year, but when she applied
9 in January to renew, they informed her because she
10 already had one, even though it wasn't for a year, she
11 was entitled to then get one in her own right.
12 Q. Now, do you know what sort of work she did in the firm
13 in Lisburn?
14 A. Very little. She was in there for a few months. It was
15 a very small practice. But it was just a mixture, just
16 a mixture. It would have been probably court criminal
17 work on a very small level.
18 Q. But the reason I ask you is because, in fact, as you
19 tell us, what she did after that work in Lisburn, six to
20 nine months, was to open up her own practice in Lurgan.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So that at that point, the point in March 1989, where
23 she began her own practice, she had had
24 a post-apprenticeship experience of six to nine months?
25 A. Yes.
46
1 Q. It was a very bold thing for her to do, wasn't it?
2 A. Well, you mean -- her intention was, when she took up
3 the job, to only be there as short a period of time as
4 necessary to get her full practising certificate, so it
5 didn't really matter what work or experience she had.
6 That was her decision.
7 Q. What I meant was that it was a bold thing to set up her
8 own practice after a relatively small amount of
9 practical experience in the job in Lisburn?
10 A. Oh, yes.
11 Q. Was she anxious as to whether she would be able to make
12 a go of it?
13 A. Oh, yes, I mean, there were a few anxious nights
14 thinking about it.
15 Q. No doubt you were privy to that anxiety yourself?
16 A. Yes, we worked out what it would take and we realised it
17 would be a long struggle, as for any practice,
18 especially from her lack of -- her experience as
19 a solicitor. We understood it would be difficult with
20 no client base.
21 Q. And it was the only firm at that time, wasn't it, a sole
22 practice firm, run by a woman in Lurgan; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And I think that may have continued actually throughout
25 the whole of her life; is that right?
47
1 A. In fact, I think -- I don't know of any women running
2 a practice in Lurgan at the moment.
3 Q. No. When she first started, how many people did she
4 have working for her?
5 A. One.
6 Q. Just one. You tell us about those early years and the
7 office in William Street in paragraph 6 of your
8 statement at RNI-815-034 (displayed). As I understand
9 it, when she first started, she didn't own the building
10 but did eventually buy the premises. Is that right?
11 A. Yes, eventually.
12 Q. And there were a number of others in the building when
13 she first started. Presumably she expanded --
14 A. It was subdivided into, like, six or seven different
15 units.
16 Q. Yes. And it looks as though from the start she expected
17 to succeed in this bold venture?
18 A. Well, make a living would be the definition at the time;
19 make a living as a solicitor, that she would have made
20 working for somebody else.
21 Q. But the thing you point up in your statement,
22 paragraph 7 -- and that is at RNI-815-035, perhaps we
23 can get that on the screen for you (displayed) -- is
24 that she thought that a female solicitor would do well
25 in the town.
48
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Why was that?
3 A. Well, one, she felt that women would be more comfortable
4 coming to a female solicitor for problems that they
5 personally had. But she had also realised that I think
6 through her work in the community centre, where lots of
7 times women would have come with family problems. And
8 she also realised that women deal with a lot of
9 day-to-day legal issues, the husbands working -- well,
10 I suppose, going back 20 years now, you know, sort of a
11 Monday to Friday, couldn't get time off, so it was left
12 to the woman to bring issues to a solicitor, deal with
13 issues on behalf of it, or convention or whatever. But
14 they dealt with it, and she felt they would feel
15 comfortable coming to her.
16 Q. And presumably she felt it was also an advantage being
17 part of a local family; she was a local woman?
18 A. At that stage she had went to school. We had lived, and
19 we had never been more than, probably two miles from
20 where she was born.
21 Q. Now, you describe the early years, the very early years
22 of the practice. It was obviously a bit tough at the
23 beginning, as no doubt it is for many people in that
24 situation. But you tell us in paragraph 8 that after
25 a couple of years things started to improve?
49
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What type of work was it that helped to bring about that
3 improvement?
4 A. It wasn't anything particular. As I say, you know, when
5 most solicitors decide to open a practice, they have
6 been practising for four or five, whatever number of
7 years and would have some sort of client base. She
8 didn't. I think she had two files when she first opened
9 her doors.
10 So it took that length of time for word to spread.
11 Even in a small community like Lurgan, people would
12 still, two years later, say, "Where are you working
13 now?" That is just the way it works.
14 Just all sorts of work. I mean, the bulk of it
15 after two years would have been matrimonial, small
16 conveyancing, small road traffic accidents, just
17 everything, petty sessions. Well, I suppose of them all
18 matrimonial, would have been the one, so it would have
19 dominated in those first two or three years.
20 Q. So you also mention a particular case in 1992 -- this is
21 paragraph 8 -- where she had acted for local employees,
22 employees of a factory. And it sounds as though that
23 did her reputation some considerable good in the town;
24 is that right?
25 A. Yes, it was put in the national papers, plus -- I mean,
50
1 for no other reason, I think there was something like
2 100/120 people she was acting for, so in one fell swoop
3 she probably had more clients than she had had in her
4 whole client base at one time. So it did her no harm
5 at all.
6 Q. In terms of the growth and the continuing development of
7 the practice, which you describe in your statement, as I
8 understand it, the reputation was passed by word of
9 mouth?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It is not something that she sought to advertise or put
12 before the public in any other way?
13 A. There was no way to do it. It was word of mouth.
14 Q. Before we look at the way the practice developed from
15 this point, can I just ask you about your own work. You
16 are not a lawyer?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What work do you do?
19 A. I am an accountant.
20 Q. Was that the work you have done throughout your married
21 life?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So all the times we have been talking about in the
24 late 80s and through the 1990s --
25 A. I got my first job and I only left there when this
51
1 Inquiry started.
2 Q. Now, in terms of the way the practice developed, you
3 tell us in paragraph 11 -- and this is at RNI-815-036
4 (displayed) -- that by 1993, so some four years after
5 the start, it had grown to a significant size?
6 A. She needed another solicitor. She needed another
7 professional help.
8 Q. That is what I wanted to ask you --
9 A. 1992/1993.
10 Q. Yes. So more employees in the office?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. More space required to work?
13 A. Hm-mm.
14 Q. And presumably another solicitor?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And we have heard a lot of evidence about the people who
17 worked with and for Rosemary Nelson over the years. It
18 looks as though the maximum number of other lawyers at
19 any one time was two. Does that accord with your --
20 A. Yes, there was never any more than three.
21 Q. In all?
22 A. In all.
23 Q. And that sometimes, even late on, it looks as though
24 there was just Rosemary Nelson and another lawyer, in
25 this case Mr Vernon?
52
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Now, looking at what motivated her as the business was
3 expanding, you have given your view about that. Was
4 money a motivating factor for her?
5 A. No, she just got engrossed in the work. She loved being
6 a lawyer and she got the opportunity to be a lawyer, and
7 she just loved the work.
8 Q. So the engagement of the work itself was the reward, as
9 far as she was concerned?
10 A. Yes. Just to be precise, at that time, it would have
11 been a profitable business. It had gone from that leap
12 of being a small, one-person practice to that leap with
13 the normal hiccups development brings with it. But it
14 was gradually developing into a profitable business.
15 Q. So by, let's say, 1993, the concerns that you had had
16 and she had had about whether it was going to work had
17 been, at least to some extent, allayed. Is that right?
18 A. Yes, well, we knew at that stage the business had just
19 other problems then come along, but we knew the business
20 was going to stand as a business.
21 Q. Did that continue to be the position throughout the rest
22 of her life?
23 A. It did, yes.
24 Q. If money wasn't the motivation, it looks as though one
25 of the ways in which the business developed, from your
53
1 perspective at any rate, was that she took on whatever
2 work came her way?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. She didn't, as it were, turn away cases as they came
5 through the door?
6 A. No, she started acting whether or not Legal Aid was
7 granted. She just moved a case on.
8 Q. So that the concern to get on with the work was greater
9 than the concern about funding?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And it looks from some of the evidence as though her
12 concern about the cases and the work, that was much more
13 important to her than, for example, keeping up with the
14 paperwork or the administration. Is that a fair
15 comment?
16 A. That's a fair comment.
17 Q. Now, so far as work that wasn't paid is concerned, you
18 have mentioned about Legal Aid and not waiting for the
19 forms to come in, as it were. You also tell us that she
20 took on a lot of pro bono work. That is paragraph 12 on
21 page RNI-815-036 (displayed). Can you think of examples
22 of pro bono work that she took on?
23 A. Not precise names, but I know she worked for a lot of
24 communities, went to meetings. You know, she just saw
25 that as an extension, because she probably worked for
54
1 those people on other cases. So she wouldn't
2 necessarily charge for individual cases that she felt
3 couldn't be paid. It was just an extension; call it PR,
4 if you like. That was just the way she operated the
5 business.
6 Q. So she would take on work willingly in those cases
7 without being paid for it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. One of the comments that has been made about her and her
10 attitude to her work was a suggestion that she found it
11 difficult to say no. In other words, if somebody said
12 to her, "Would you do this for me, would you act in this
13 way for me?" she tended to say, "Yes, I will"?
14 A. Yes, it is an option, because she then was making
15 a judgment call on that particular case, which she would
16 never do.
17 Q. No. So I am clear on this, she wouldn't, as it were,
18 form her own judgment about the merits one way or
19 another of a case before deciding whether to take it on?
20 A. All -- I couldn't get into her mind, but all I know, she
21 never came to me and said, "I'm not taking this case on
22 because I am unhappy for X, Y, Z reasons with the client
23 or the case". She never once said that.
24 I do know she has dealt with some quite gruesome
25 cases. I just then had to accept the evidence before
55
1 me, that was her feelings: that the case nor the client
2 would make any difference to her.
3 Q. But all of these characteristics of hers, which you
4 obviously knew well, certainly taken together are
5 a recipe for doing more and more and more work, aren't
6 they?
7 A. Correct, yes.
8 Q. And that, presumably, was a concern for you?
9 A. Yes. In 1995, 1996, 1997 the number of cases coming in
10 was growing substantially.
11 Q. And presumably she was having to work longer and longer
12 hours?
13 A. Yes and no. I mean, you couldn't actually say she was
14 doing -- but more intense. In the first two or three
15 years of the business, she had more time and was able to
16 take more time over a case. Everything now had to be
17 done there and then at high speed.
18 Q. The pressure was greater?
19 A. Plus the pressure of running the office, because at this
20 stage she had a lot more staff. So the normal pressures
21 of staff in the office, and the more staff you have, the
22 more problems you have.
23 Q. We will come back to that question when we look at the
24 slightly later years.
25 Can I ask you a question about the sort of people
56
1 she worked for. As I understand it from your statement,
2 the open door policy, if I can put it that way, the
3 willingness to take on work as it came to her, meant
4 that she did work for both sides of the community here
5 in Northern Ireland; is that right?
6 A. Well, she didn't ask them who they were when they walked
7 in the door. They just come in as a client. They were
8 a client, that is it.
9 Q. You give some examples of that in paragraph 13 on
10 RNI-815-036 (displayed), and you suggest that what you
11 call the Protestant client base was still a substantial
12 part of the overall client base at the time of her
13 death?
14 A. Yes, she would have known by -- because I have a deep
15 knowledge of the client base because I have had to run
16 the office after her death, I know by the names and the
17 addresses predominantly that it was, as I say, maybe not
18 50/50, but it wasn't far off that.
19 Q. So in other words, that this pattern continued, at least
20 so far as you are aware, up to the time of her death?
21 A. Yes, it's not just particular to Rosemary. Lurgan would
22 do that. People, when they go to any professional, from
23 my own experience too, they don't make a judgment call
24 on whether a solicitor is Catholic or Protestant. They
25 go to somebody they trust who they reckon can do a good
57
1 job.
2 Q. So in that sense she conformed --
3 A. A professional in --
4 Q. -- with the general approach in that area?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Yes. So far as the cases with which a lot of evidence
7 has been concerned; namely, the what other people have
8 called the high profile cases, involving in particular
9 allegations of terrorist-related offences, can you
10 remember when that sort of work started to come her way?
11 A. You can't draw, you know, a line in the sand. It was,
12 I suspect -- Well, I know that sort of -- you started
13 doing particular cases with different people, and as the
14 practice developed, either they got into the different
15 problems and came to her, or people out there had seen
16 how she was dealing with small issues and decided to
17 come to her because they trusted her to deal with major
18 issues.
19 But you can't put your finger on it and say when it
20 was happening. It was just a development at the office:
21 the same way it expanded, the same way as she was
22 getting larger litigation cases. And I suspect that
23 when a person has a small road traffic accident, they
24 are quite happy to go to any solicitor, but if they have
25 a major medical case or something, they think long and
58
1 hard about it. That is just the way, because your
2 reputation -- those are the way those cases presumably
3 came to her.
4 Q. So this was part of the gradual development of practice?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Not something that happened suddenly?
7 A. And I noticed that in these high profile cases -- she
8 had actually higher profile cases but, because they
9 weren't terrorist-related, they haven't been mentioned
10 here. So her profile had been known within Lurgan on
11 these other cases.
12 Q. Can you give us some examples?
13 A. I can't remember the name, but I know -- I mean, she had
14 done, I think, two murder cases in 1993/1994, you know,
15 very gruesome murder cases. I know one in particular
16 was very gruesome.
17 Q. There is one you mention in paragraph 16. Perhaps that
18 will help you, if you look at RNI-815-037 (displayed).
19 A. Is that the neighbour next door?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So that was a very high profile case?
23 A. Because of the nature of the case, very unprovoked type
24 of case.
25 Q. Yes. And when you say in this paragraph:
59
1 "After this case she handled three to four attempted
2 murder cases ..."
3 Were those terrorist cases or were they, as it were,
4 ordinary?
5 A. Just ordinary crime cases.
6 Q. Now, one of the themes that emerges very strongly from
7 your statement is your view -- which you have indicated
8 a little earlier -- that the number of high profile
9 cases of the terrorist kind, which she undertook in the
10 course of her practice, was a relatively small number
11 compared to the overall number of her cases?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And I think you believe, don't you, that that created
14 a misleading or distorted impression of the sort of work
15 she did day in, day out?
16 A. Yes. I mean, I think there has only been three cases --
17 I may be wrong -- that she mentioned here. I mean, when
18 her practice closed, I know she had close to 1,500 live
19 cases, you know. And these three -- so she must have
20 dealt, 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 cases, and these were two
21 or three cases.
22 Q. Can I just ask you: when the first of these
23 terrorist-related cases came in, did she express any
24 concerns to you about taking it on?
25 A. No.
60
1 Q. Now, at a number of points in your statement you say
2 that you didn't discuss details of her work with her?
3 A. No.
4 Q. On the grounds of client confidentiality?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So can I take it --
7 A. Sorry, I should clarify that just before you move on.
8 I mean we didn't discuss cases that I wouldn't have
9 known about. But of course, a lot of cases were, just
10 like I have mentioned, public knowledge, so we would
11 discuss cases like that.
12 Q. But so far as matters that weren't public knowledge were
13 concerned then, this was her policy, was it, throughout
14 her life: not to discuss the confidential details with
15 you?
16 A. That's correct. Presumably on the basis that she wasn't
17 allowed to.
18 Q. So far as the first of the two Colin Duffy cases that we
19 have heard so much about -- this is the Lyness case --
20 was that one of the first murder cases that she had
21 done?
22 A. It was definitely the first terrorist murder case. No,
23 I think that other case pre-dated that. I may be wrong,
24 but I think the other case pre-dated it.
25 Q. The domestic murder --
61
1 A. I would have to check, but I think that it pre-dated it.
2 Q. In relation to that case in particular, can you help: do
3 you know how that case, the first of the Colin Duffy
4 cases, came her way?
5 A. Not precisely, no, but he lived in the area. I am sure,
6 like most cases, it was just family connections or she
7 had done work for them before.
8 Q. You say in paragraph 23 at RNI-815-039 (displayed) that
9 you suspect that she acted for clients such as
10 Colin Duffy because she had acted for other members of
11 his family before, done a lot of work --
12 A. That is the way most of her work come in, through
13 family -- you did petty sessions. They got something
14 else, and as she got more experienced, cases from the
15 same source of people.
16 Q. This case -- and as we all know, it went eventually to
17 an appeal and Mr Duffy was released in 1996 -- when she
18 first became involved in it, was there any sense on your
19 part, not in discussion with her -- you have talked
20 about that -- was there any concern on your part about
21 her becoming involved in a terrorist murder case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. No.
24 A. It was just a case. She was a solicitor. It was
25 a case. There was no ...
62
1 Q. This, of course, was in a period in Northern Ireland
2 long before the Good Friday Agreement and when things
3 were perhaps not as certain or settled as they became in
4 the later years of her life. But you were not concerned
5 about her taking on a case of this kind?
6 A. No, I mean, because we both had lived in
7 Northern Ireland over the worst of the Troubles, and,
8 you know -- and there had been a lot worse happened over
9 the period of time. So I mean, it was nothing
10 extraordinary at that time. There was nothing going on
11 that made it any different to things that had happened
12 years and years before and other solicitors had done
13 numerous times. So ...
14 Q. We have heard that some solicitors were not willing, or
15 not keen at any rate, to take on work of that kind, some
16 solicitors in that area. Were there other solicitors in
17 Lurgan at the time who were doing work of that kind?
18 A. There was bound to be. There was no way Rosemary was
19 doing it all, so there must have been other solicitors
20 doing that type of work, either before, after or during
21 her life.
22 Q. Can I ask you about another of the cases that the
23 Inquiry has been hearing about, and that is the
24 Garvaghy Road work?
25 Am I right in thinking, again, as far as you are
63
1 aware, that this was a pro bono case?
2 A. It was, yes. Sorry, for the community -- I mean, there
3 would have been work out of it from separate
4 individuals.
5 Q. Yes, there were claims cases, weren't there --
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. -- later on, and they would presumably have been dealt
8 with under the normal Legal Aid rules?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But so far as her work for the community and the
11 meetings we have heard about, et cetera, that was pro
12 bono?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And how did she come to take on that case?
15 A. Well, by that stage -- I presume you are talking
16 probably 1995/1996 -- she was doing a lot of work in
17 Portadown. Craigavon court covers Lurgan/Portadown in
18 that area, so quite a few people -- there was
19 a crossover. Some Portadown people would have married
20 and have lived in Lurgan and vice versa, so her name
21 would have started going about Portadown, they'd have
22 seen her in court, so she had started to get a lot of
23 work out of Portadown.
24 Q. You say you think she would have known Mr Mac Cionnaith
25 before?
64
1 A. Yes, his family is from Lurgan so she would have known
2 the Mac Cionnaith family.
3 Q. The work she did for that case, some of the witnesses,
4 some of the people who worked in the office, described
5 how that took up a huge amount of her time, certainly in
6 1997 and 1998. Was that something that you yourself
7 were aware of at the time?
8 A. No. Well, it took up time, but in short sharp spasms of
9 time which normally centred around the July period, when
10 most offices are quite quiet anyhow; in Northern Ireland
11 anyhow, July our courts closed.
12 There would have been other times, but most of the
13 focus would have been just before or just prior to the
14 parade, which takes place the first Sunday in July, I
15 think. So July would have been the time but, no -- I
16 mean, devoted, but nothing overly -- I mean, she was
17 still running a practice, you know. But, no, there was
18 short spasms and she would have spent, when she got over
19 there, maybe two to three days at a time. But, no, it
20 was a time when it was quiet in the practice.
21 Q. But clearly, if only from your perspective as an
22 accountant, never mind as her husband, were you not
23 worried that so much time, even in those particular
24 parts of the year, was being devoted?
25 A. No, because, one, it brought her in contact with loads
65
1 of clients. And I mean, if you are looking at if from
2 a purely financial basis, how many cases did she get out
3 of that short period of time? Hundreds of other cases.
4 Plus the fact Rosemary had this knack of being with you
5 for five minutes, but giving you the impression that she
6 had spent the whole week thinking about your case. But
7 before and after you left, she moved on to something
8 else. But she had this knack of making you think you
9 were the only concern in her mind and had been for the
10 last month.
11 Q. It is a very enviable quality.
12 A. Just the way she could cover a case and deal with
13 people. Presumably that is why her practice developed
14 so much, because everybody assumed they were getting
15 personal attention.
16 Q. So it was one of her talents, clearly -- and others have
17 mentioned this -- to, as it were, have the first meeting
18 with the client to get the work in and then it might be
19 that the actual, you know, dogsbody work, if I can put
20 it that way, afterwards would have been dealt with by
21 other people?
22 A. That's actually what happened, yes.
23 Q. Yes. Now, in paragraph 22 of your statement when you
24 are dealing with the Garvaghy Road, you say in the third
25 sentence:
66
1 "She saw it simply as a progression of her existing
2 case load."
3 I wanted to see if you could expand on that for us.
4 What do you mean exactly about that expression?
5 A. Not being involved in the face-to-face discussions, but
6 I would say that somebody came to her, albeit in this
7 case it may have been a group of people who came to her,
8 and said, "We have a problem, could you help us with
9 it?" And it would have been a simple as that.
10 Q. So an extension in the sense of being very like the
11 other pro bono work that you have described earlier; is
12 that right?
13 A. Like any work she did, whether pro bono or not, somebody
14 came, they had a problem and they needed legal help with
15 it and she took it on. There was no real difference --
16 it was just more high profile. There was no real
17 difference in it really.
18 Q. But you say in your statement, as far as you were
19 concerned, it was this case which, in a sense, made her
20 most obviously a public figure, more than all the other
21 cases that we have heard reference to?
22 A. Well, other people made her a public figure out of doing
23 this work.
24 Q. Yes. What do you mean by that?
25 A. I mean, it is like in anything, you know, people talked
67
1 about it. She didn't make herself a public figure out
2 of it. Other people did for, you know, their views on
3 the issue.
4 Q. You describe her as a private --
5 A. She was --
6 Q. -- and as a shy person?
7 A. She was, yes.
8 Q. So, as you saw it at any rate, the publicity which she
9 undoubtedly did receive as a result of this work you
10 believe was not something she herself sought?
11 A. No, not for herself.
12 Q. No. Would she have sought it as part of her work for
13 her clients?
14 A. If she thought her clients needed publicity to help
15 their case, she would have encouraged them to seek it,
16 yes.
17 Q. Now, can we just look forward to the couple of years
18 before her murder, and in particular to, let's say, late
19 1997/98.
20 By that stage, how much matrimonial work and
21 conveyancing work was Rosemary Nelson herself doing, do
22 you think?
23 A. What were those years again?
24 Q. 1997 and 1998.
25 A. She had just reorganised the office I think around
68
1 1996/1997. I think that might have been the time when
2 she had started -- well, 1998 definitely she took on
3 another solicitor. The office had expanded. She had
4 taken on a lot of extra staff, which caused problems.
5 Sometimes the more staff you have, the less work is
6 actually going out the door.
7 So she had reorganised and she had then put herself
8 in place of sort of being what one called the lead
9 figure in it: So, you know, seeing everybody, taking
10 the jobs on. But she now was employing experienced --
11 what you would call them now? -- legal executives, you
12 know? She had some very highly qualified staff who were
13 not solicitors but had worked in solicitors' practice
14 for 10, 15, 20 years, and she was using them to do a lot
15 of the day-to-day work on the case and she was leading
16 all the cases. That is how she was actually managing to
17 deal with the large volume of cases she was dealing
18 with.
19 Q. She was heavily reliant on delegation?
20 A. Yes. I mean, not that she was reliant. It was
21 a decision she made that -- she had ended up and she
22 would sort out three or four -- you wouldn't call them
23 solicitors, but they weren't far off being that
24 experienced. Her decision was it was better to use them
25 than to bring newly qualified solicitors into the
69
1 practice. They were more productive.
2 Q. So how was she spending her working time?
3 A. Well, initially trying to see as many clients as
4 possible and dealing with the intricacies of a case
5 rather than the mundane paperwork presumably we all have
6 to deal with. She was passing that down and getting
7 that done. You could presumably call it a more
8 business-like approach to operating the office.
9 Q. That strategy, was that something that you had discussed
10 with her?
11 A. No, she told me. I think she had discussed it with her
12 own accountant. I imagine that the accountant of the
13 practice, they had looked at this and I think she had
14 decided that this was the way -- she was never going to
15 be able to get to a highly qualified, you know,
16 experienced solicitor into the practice, because the
17 first thing they would ask for is presumably, "When is
18 my partnership coming?" So she knew that that wouldn't
19 work.
20 So she used a different tactic of, "Look, we will
21 take on the work but I have five highly-qualified staff
22 to do it." And that's what she was doing, being the PR,
23 the profile, the person they initially see and,
24 presumably, the person they see last. But in the middle
25 you had all the people doing the work.
70
1 I don't know if it's something that goes on. I know
2 it goes on in accountancy practice all the time. You
3 see the partner at the start, you maybe see him at the
4 end when he is finishing the case and handing you the
5 bill, but in between he may not see your case.
6 Q. Presumably one of the elements of the strategy you have
7 described is she didn't want to have a partner in the
8 practice; she wanted to continue to be a sole
9 practitioner?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Were there occasions when you thought that it might have
12 been better for her to have a partner in the practice,
13 somebody to whom she could speak as an equal about the
14 problems of the practice?
15 A. I don't recollect at the time, but I have since, yes,
16 and in hindsight, yes, it would have been far better if
17 there had been, presumably from day 1, an experienced
18 partner with her, yes.
19 Q. Because, as we have heard from other witnesses, when
20 there are pressures and concerns and worries, it is of
21 course, much easier to speak, you know, on the level, as
22 it were, with a partner?
23 A. I think you have to realise that Rosemary's practice
24 only lasted just a day short of ten years, and it took
25 off so slowly that it really -- it got very intense very
71
1 quick. You know, you can't look back now and say --
2 things moved on so fast, but in hindsight, yes, it would
3 have been better if there had been an experienced
4 partner there.
5 Q. Can I just come back to the question of the perception
6 of the practice and this question of which were the
7 cases that shaped that perception.
8 You have said or confirmed already that in your view
9 it was the Garvaghy Road case that was most high
10 profile. You tell us in paragraph 56 -- and this is the
11 at the bottom of page RNI-815-048 of your statement, the
12 very last line (displayed) -- that you think she would
13 have been of the view that it was the work that she did
14 for the GRRC that was the most high profile she ever
15 had?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So that was something that you are aware of from what
18 she herself said; is that right?
19 A. Of people that I know she saw, she spoke to, she dealt
20 with, either through her or that was in the papers. The
21 TV coverage alone, I mean, you know -- you know, you
22 have had very few clips of Drumcree, but there are
23 hundreds and hundreds of hours out there of the Drumcree
24 coverage. I suspect that most people even in here would
25 all have heard of Drumcree. They may not have met her
72
1 in any of these other cases. It was known worldwide. So
2 yes, it would have been the most high profile.
3 Q. And you say earlier in your statement -- and this is
4 paragraph 33 at RNI-815-041 (displayed) -- that you
5 think this high profile -- whatever it was that caused
6 it -- did cause her real difficulties in later years, or
7 rather some people's reaction to her high profile did.
8 And can I ask you first: what were the difficulties that
9 you are referring to there?
10 A. You know, harm to her life. I mean, she realised that
11 the profile of the case and her association with it
12 could be difficult.
13 Q. That it might put her in danger?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So can I just be clear about this: At the time, she
16 thought, did she, that it was this case, the GRRC case,
17 that led to that sense of her being in danger?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in this same passage, do you see at the very bottom
20 of the page, you say:
21 "She felt that people were making judgment calls on
22 her."
23 Can you help? What do you mean by that?
24 A. It is quite obvious: they saw her with the Garvaghy Road
25 residents and they assumed that because she was acting
73
1 for them, she supported their cause.
2 Q. I see. So that the judgments people were making were to
3 associate her, the lawyer, with the clients in that case
4 and their cause?
5 A. I would suspect -- I would suppose so, yes.
6 Q. Again, is that something, that problem of -- what's a
7 problem of perception essentially, was that something
8 that you discussed with her?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what was her view about that, as you would see it,
11 wrong perception of her?
12 A. She could do nothing about it. You can't change
13 people's perceptions. You can't do anything about it.
14 You either stand up and talk about that you do not agree
15 with them or whatever, but you can't change it. You
16 just have to hope that there is more people out there
17 understand your relationship with your clients than have
18 the opposite view. But there was absolutely nothing --
19 except walk away from it. There is nothing you can do
20 about it.
21 Q. Later in this same paragraph at RNI-815-042, if we look
22 at the top of the next page (displayed), you say you
23 don't think these sort of thoughts really troubled her
24 until about a year or so before her death?
25 A. That's correct.
74
1 Q. Just dealing with that sentence, if you had
2 conversations of this kind, as far as you could see, she
3 was not concerned or worried about the effects of the
4 high profile case until about a year before her death;
5 is that right? The top of the page.
6 A. Well -- no, she always was aware of it. She always was
7 aware that there was a danger. It just got worse in the
8 last year, 18 months.
9 Q. Were you aware at the time of what had led to that
10 change?
11 A. Well, I think -- well, the main reason is because she
12 was now operating directly in an area which had
13 a reputation for gruesome murders.
14 Q. This is the local area?
15 A. The Portadown area.
16 Q. Yes. In other words, because of her work for the
17 Residents Coalition, she was, geographically at any
18 rate -- the focus of her work had shifted in that sense
19 to Portadown?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Which was at that time, a year or so before her death,
22 as we have heard, a particularly fraught and
23 conflict-ridden place?
24 A. Correct. And I believe the dates probably coincide with
25 another case she had just started dealing with.
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1 Q. Do you mean the --
2 A. Robert Hamill case.
3 Q. The Robert Hamill case?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I think she started to be involved in that in 1997,
6 didn't she?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And that was a murder that had also taken place in
9 Portadown?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Yes. Now, at that stage then, a year or so, let's say
12 in early 1998, before her murder, did you talk to her
13 about this change and what it meant for her?
14 A. Well, we were concerned, I mean -- specifically the fact
15 that she had to be in that area on a regular basis and
16 at strange times, you know, late at night, early in the
17 morning, unsociable hours, because of the circumstances
18 of the problems in Portadown, you know, the
19 Garvaghy Road residents had at that time, particularly
20 around the time of the march. And she was also aware,
21 as I said, (inaudible) time before that that had brought
22 her into conflict with the other people in Portadown
23 too.
24 She knew herself the type of individuals that lived
25 and operated out of the Portadown area. So, I mean, she
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1 knew all these things, but she just couldn't walk away
2 from it. It was a judgment call she had to make.
3 Q. That is the next thing I wanted to ask you: Did you say
4 to her, "Well, shouldn't you give up this type of work?"
5 A. No. If you had known Rosemary -- if you had asked her
6 to give up a case because she was going to be
7 threatened, you had less likelihood of getting her to do
8 it.
9 She was fully aware of it. She was very worried
10 but, you know, the cases had just built up. It is not
11 as simple -- and I think what is probably going through
12 her mind: when you turn down one, where do you stop? Do
13 you stop at the next door neighbour? You don't like him
14 because he's -- You couldn't do it. It was a path you
15 couldn't go on: letting people decide what cases you did
16 or did not do, mainly due to maybe something that was
17 written in the papers or what reporters said. You had
18 to trust that those on the ground knew you as a
19 solicitor. She just couldn't go down that path.
20 Q. So you didn't make the suggestion because you knew --
21 A. Some might say you should have made (inaudible). I knew
22 it would have made no difference. If I would have made
23 it, it would have only been for PR purposes. No, she
24 wouldn't have walked away from any case.
25 Q. And in relation to publicity and what we talked about
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1 a little earlier, where you said that you drew
2 a distinction between, as it were, publicity for herself
3 and publicity for her clients, did you discuss that
4 particular aspect of it? In other words, was there
5 anything --
6 A. Not as cold-bloodedly as you are putting it there. It
7 has come up through her life. As you say, she was
8 a very shy person. It seems a long time ago now.
9 I watched the clips that you have shown. I don't
10 know -- most of them, except maybe for one, she was
11 talking about clients in all of them. I may be
12 surprised, but I think she only produced one -- and you
13 saw the circumstances that that took place. It wasn't
14 a rational judgment call that she made to profile
15 herself. I think she was more likely doorstepped, and
16 you saw the fear in her eyes when she was giving that
17 interview. I think she may have given one or two
18 interviews to journalists throughout her ten years.
19 I don't see that much of a PR campaign, you know
20 what I mean? The rest, where she was speaking on behalf
21 of clients -- but even then, she didn't actually speak
22 that often throughout her ten years in practice, you
23 know.
24 Q. You will have heard the evidence: that some have said
25 that there were constant television cameras coming in
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1 and out. Does that accord with your understanding?
2 A. No, and I am sure if it was we would have loads more
3 pictures here. No, there was never a journalist unless
4 there happened to be a journalist who we weren't aware
5 of in our house in the area. We are just not that type
6 of family.
7 As I say, I can't remember her actually sitting
8 down -- I don't know she was ever -- I don't think of
9 any TV programmes with her being on it or anything. No,
10 that wasn't her nature.
11 Q. With the exception of the interview you have mentioned,
12 was that the interview in relation to the Garvaghy Road
13 matters?
14 A. I believe some American was there doing some -- who
15 presumably was there, had been about for a few days and
16 happened to be with Rosemary at the time. But you saw;
17 it was a very professional, organised interview and
18 I suspect that was just after her incident on the road.
19 Q. Turning to another topic, in paragraph 34 you talk about
20 the difficulties she was having with the police and how
21 they developed. Again, it is a very difficult, I know,
22 but can you help us as to when you were first aware that
23 she was having problems with the police?
24 A. It is impossible to isolate it, because like most of
25 these things, like the growth of her practice,
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1 everything, I mean, it just -- it is just one day it
2 appeared. Probably 1997/1998, she started to think
3 about it more. Up to then, you know, there was -- she
4 had very good relationships with the police. I know
5 that she had many police officers and women as clients.
6 And it just -- I mean, she herself couldn't probably say
7 when it had happened, but she just got the feeling --